Today’s ramble is not intended to be a light hearted break from your reality with a bit of humorous anecdotes. Rather, it is intended to make you think and hopefully spark discussion throughout the comment section.
When I am not thinking of random stuff that amuses me, watching Hells Kitchen, or rubbing wife’s feet, I often revert back to thoughts of God, meaning, the universe and all of that crap.
Stuff I have been pondering for many years.
In a few weeks I am hoping to post a very lengthy autobiography of my spiritual upbringing and journey through faith. But until that is posted, I leave you with this question…
Come on people…give it a whirl….
Ahem…
The Catholic Church teaches that
“God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end”. (CCC #137)
If the above statement is true, then one of three things is occurring.
1. God is NOT omnipresent and omnipotent. He exists only in the now, and cannot foresee the events of the future. A soul is sent down to earth, freewill is gifted to him, Godly fingers are crossed, and personal decisions are made that end him up in the infernal regions of Hades. This in turn would indicate that fate (or the concept of fatalism) does not exist.. Things really DON’T happen “for a reason” and were never and will never exist as being “meant to be”.
2. God IS omnipresent and omnipotent, fate does exist, and He knows the future of what will happen and creates the soul ANYWAY, thus allowing him to take a not-so-innocent stroll down the fire bricked road to an everlasting underworld of nightmarish agony. If this is the case, then we have no freewill and are but puppets on a string with no real control over our own lives, so none of this matters anyway. Predestination to Hell exists. That’s not fair!???
3. God does not exist as the entity we know Him to be, we are all random particles of matter thrown together without an apparent architect whatsoever and we are all living on spaceship earth without a pilot. Hell and heaven don’t exist, and when we die its “lights out” or some other place many believe we can go. This can include the concept of past lives, returning to earth over and over again gaining more and more experiences until an ascension or some sort of Nirvana can occur – thus ending the cycle. But even if this is the case, the question of freewill or fate is still in existence.
There you have it folks. A deeper side of the 30 something suburbanite.
Please take the time to mull this over, post your thoughts, challenge my ideas, but above all – get those electrons moving in those thick skulls of yours.I look forward to your thoughts.
P.S. I understand you need a funny, so here I will leave you with this:
Two bishops were discussing the decline in morals in the modern world.
“I didn’t sleep with my wife before I was married,” said one clergyman self-righteously, “Did you?”
“I don’t know,” said the other. “What was her maiden name?”
Katrina
September 18, 2009
Jason,
Nice stuff, first of all… I believe we are all puppets on a string and our fate is destined for us all the day we’re conceived. I try not to think too hard about it..just go with the flow. Not the point that I’m passive but I only try and change or control the things that I know I can… otherwise, wasted energy. I’m not sure what’s in the after life. Personally, I hope I come back in the form of a regal beautiful eagle!
I
Seekraz
September 18, 2009
First of all, I loved the ‘funny’ that you provided…very good! “What was her maiden name?” Second, I’d have to go with the option that describes God as not existing, etc, etc. When we die, just like the bugs in the field, the reindeer in the Arctic, the snakes in the Amazon, and the coyotes in the deserts and all other living forms…we rot in the ground and our existence is over…except as the minerals are redistributed in the plant life, water cycle, and even eaten as plants and nourishing whatever animal ate it, etc…we return to the simpler forms of our elemental components. I suppose it’s possible that our electrical impulses or waves that have been emitting from our bodies may continue to exist out there in the great beyond, but that’s another article altogether. Our ‘free will’ is constrained, among other things, by our internalized and legal mores, values, and laws…and we accept or don’t accept them…and we manifest or don’t manifest them as we will…and we do so to the extent that our physical, mental, and emotional freedoms allow us to…but I don’t believe we’re predestined to do or be anything, and don’t believe that fate drives or prevents anything. We just are and do what we’re able to do given our opportunities, access, etc. Those are some of my thoughts…. I’ll look forward to that journey through faith and out again!
maestrojaune
September 18, 2009
Your three options are not the only ones and there is some flaws in your logic. Predestination takes away our free agency. Our choice is made for us and there is nothing we can do to change it. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, that doesn’t forcibly mean he controls us. We can still have our choice even if He knows what we will choose. For example, you set out some candy unwrapped on the table, tell your three year old not to touch it, then leave the room. You may know without a doubt they will eat the candy because you know your child and what they will do. Because you know they will do this does not mean that they no longer have a choice. They still have the same choice whether you know this or not. So, you can know your child very well and know what they are likely to do in certain circumstances but they still have their freewill to choose. God is the same way.
Terrie Culberson
September 18, 2009
Well, this is certainly something to think about. But I’m not sure you have it all there. I’ll come back and post my thoughts after really pondering them. :~)
Machelle
September 18, 2009
First let me say again, you think too much. I believe God created us in his likeness, with the intention of following Him, giving us the free will to chose not to though. Weather or not He knows what we will choose or not is irrelevant. I believe there is a Heaven and a Hell. I have faith in God, being that I have no proof of Him, yet I know Him in my heart and prayers. Faith and God is a hard concept for those who think too much because you have no concrete proof that you so want. God is a loving God and wants to be a part of our lives, deep inside we want that too. We have to open our hearts to God and make Him a part of our daily life, our best friend. I kinda went off the beaten path, but you know what I mean. Love ya Jason.
Jason Martin
September 18, 2009
Mr. Meadows! First, thank you so much for reading and subsequently responding to this post. You are absolutely correct in your statement that “Predestination takes away our free agency”. THAT is what I am trying to point out. Secondly, your analogy of the father and son is very well put and thought out. However, your argument is not proving that God knows the future of human events, but rather that God knows enough about his childrens human nature to make an assumption that they will “take the candy” – the father does not know the future, but only basing a theory off of previous experience and knowledge of human behavior. The Bible says that we are made in the likeness of God, and that is something we all can relate to and compare ourselves to, such as you have, to explain a lot of things. However, based on your excellent analogy, the question that then must be asked is this: As a father, why test your child with candy in the first place? Why not just put the candy where he can’t get it? And even if you DO decide to test him with candy, if he fails the tasty test – do you damn him to an eternity of bed without supper ? Lastly, if you knew ahead of time that your child would make decisions in his life that would lead him to a place of unimaginable terror, would you create him at all? If so, why? And would’t that be creating a child that is predestined to hell?
Jason Martin
September 19, 2009
Scott-
Hint, Hint.
Once again, thank you for your thoughts. It is difficult to counter your position on the question of God’s predestination intentions when your position is based in a non-belief of God in the first place. Our argument must then turn to one over the very existance of God, which we will leave for another day. I am curious about your thoughts, and now essential upcoming blog entry, on the concept of our energy leaving our bodies and moving onto the “great beyond”
Jason Martin
September 19, 2009
Katrina-
Thank you so much for your thoughts!! Yours are very important to me because they allow me to think for a moment about the possiblity of your theory as being correct. In a way, it is really kind of a freeing existance. Because if you think about it, we can do pretty much anything we want to do (regardless or in spite of the consequences) with a clean concious, because we know that it wasn’t our fault, as it was meant to be or willed by God in the first place. Our punishments may suck, but our conscious is clear…
Jason Martin
September 19, 2009
Machelle-
I can always count on you to give your two cents on these things! Thank you ! You make a lot of sense by saying that people who “think too much” have a hard time beliving because a lack of “concrete proof”. Tough to argue that! There is something to be said, somthing so comforting about blind faith. It is not a bad thing at all, I was once where you are. Unfortunately I started thinking and questioning myself right out of certain aspects of faith. Blind faith is good, but does that mean that we should stop thinking altogether? Stop questioning and moving forward in our collective spiritual existances? You also said that God’s knowing or not knowing the choices we make is “irrelevant”. Would you not agree that it is a curious thing to ponder? Because to me, God’s very existance and subsequent omnipotence really hinges on this question, at least for me.
Jason Martin
September 19, 2009
Terrie -
I’m waaaaaiiittttinngggggg….
Seekraz
September 19, 2009
With regard to Maestrojaune’s response, and in direct address to what I perceive to be the main issue here, the kid and candy analogy fails to parallel the severity and cruelty of the God who knows in His omniscience what His children are going to choose of their own free will, and still allows them to come into existence when He knows that they will perish in that promised lake of fire for those who do not accept Him or who turn away from Him…. He knew before-hand, per the understood definition of ‘omniscience,’ and He still allowed them to live and then die that horrible and eternal death…that’s the disconnect…that doesn’t speak of a loving or even irrational, non-loving God. It speaks of a barbarity, arrogance, jealousy, and mean-heartedness that comes from nowhere but the men’s minds who created Him and magnificently compounds the absurd notion that He really exists. In light of this conversation, and augmented by the many others out there demonstrating the same failings, how could He possibly exist…really, aside from ‘faith’ and pretense? Again, those are some of my thoughts…yours might be different. For those of you interested in further and random expositions on the same subject, and others, visit my blog at http://www.scottbrill.blog.com Would love to see you there. And if you don’t like what you read, you can blame Jason…. He’s the one who turned me on to the blogging thing!
Dave Horney
September 19, 2009
I tend to look to the Book written by the Boss rather than the teachings of His (generally well intentioned) minions. Scripture very plainly says that He is not willing that ANY should perish. Jesus also told us that He came to save not condemn. Hell (the flaming burning part) was created for Satan and His 1/3 of the angels that he managed to seduce. Over the centuries human understanding/bastardization of the concept has turned it into a giant folklorish bogeyman (yeah I’m mixing my metaphors) that can be used to terrify and coerce folks into “behaving properly”. Of course “behaving properly” is invariably defined by the one who is threatening hellfire–usually some kind of “religious” leader.
Free will can be boiled down to the acceptance or rejection of God. We are always free to walk away. It’s not in our best interest, it will at some point cause us extreme pain, but the choice is ours. It’s not really possible to fully comprehend the way God feels toward us. He gives us glimpses in our human relationships. Teenagers making moon eyes at the current object of their obsession (yeah God has a crush on you). Passionate newlyweds who can’t wait to tear each others clothes off (yeah God is “horny” for you). An old dying guy who escorts his wife and helps her into the car (yeah God is still crazy for you after all these years). A Daddy holding a tiny sleeping child and knowing that he will do anything to protect and preserve this tiny life (yeah He’s your Daddy).
It’s not about theology. It’s not about following the rules. It’s all about relationship.
Frankly, I don’t really understand His hangup with Free Will. When I love someone I sure as hell don’t want to set them free. Without the free will stuff none of the pain and suffering would exist in this world. Simply cutting off our option to opt out would have dramatically changed how the whole thing has played out. We would indisputably have been happy–naked people everywhere, nice landscaping, free food.
Yet we admire those who are willing to sacrifice for freedom–Nelson Mandela spending years in prison, the name kid facing down the tanks in Tienanmen Square, Dr King standing in front of his bombed out house and stating that he cannot be made to hate. We are made in His image–our indignation at the injustice and suffering, abuse and death is a pale shadow of His. That wasn’t what He wanted. Did He know it would happen–Yeah. Did He love us enough to let it happen–Yeah. Do I understand why–fuck no.
Will there be humans in “hell”. I suspect so. There are some who are so hard headed that they simply won’t be willing to subject themselves to His love. Will there be the untold billions that the religious establishment has lead us to believe. I doubt it. God cheats. He plays with crooked dice. He loves us so much He actually fucking died to prove it. And He made the “entrance exam” ridiculously easy. It’s pass/fail. The rest He grades on the curve. (yeah I’m plagiarizing myself so I think it’s ok)
He is going to make us forcefully and consciously reject Him. Your soul is immortal–this body is temporary but you are not. Don’t expect Him to stop chasing you just because your ticker has stopped.
Machelle
September 19, 2009
Jason, my faith is not completely blind. I have heard God speak and I have witnessed his work. I have seen Him work through others. I have seen Him in the eyes of a dying person. And say what you will, He was there with me for the miracle of all 4 of my children’s births. He has answered my prayers, not all of them, apparently He had other plans. I am his daughter and He loves me, my purpose in life is to serve Him, and in doing so, the rest falls into place. I’ve not always been where I am, it’s taken most of my life to get here. Things are far from perfect but my outlook is so different, I am so much more thankful of the many blessings I do have, and the people brought to my life. He gave us the tools and knowledge to choose our path in life, I don’t think He set us up to fail, but the choice is ultimately ours. If we but ask, He is there to help and guide us.
maestrojaune
September 19, 2009
Well, I was initially hesitant to post a comment because in this forum, it is difficult to have a conversational interaction with full clarity and without being misunderstood. Trying to make a single point on one part of an issue is not an endorsement of all the other assumptions and points; for I see some of the premises as false and don’t accept them. For example, I don’t endorse the notion that if the child in my example eats the candy then that child will be doomed to fire and brimstone for that choice. I enjoy discussions of purposes of life, religion, etc. but don’t engage in them to prove people wrong or prove that I am correct as I don’t feel this type of conversation is productive. When all involved are genuinely interested in understanding what the beliefs are of someone else, whether they accept them or not, then we are engaged in a positive interaction that can help enrich ourselves and our relationships. I have enjoyed reading all the comments on this topic but feel at this point I am not going to add anything else because to fully understand what I believe and the context in which I believe it is important to understand if I am going to be clear on making any single point and that is not possible to do in this forum. Jason, I would be more than happy to talk in person at some point if you are curious about what I believe and why I believe it. Having said that, I do enjoy intellectual conversations on many topics and usually feel enriched doing so. So, I hope I can continue to add interesting views on different things in the future here and on Scott’s blog. Will have to check it out!
Seekraz
September 19, 2009
I love what you said, David H…absolutely love it. If I were still a believer instead of an atheist, I think I would probably be crying right now…seriously; I’m not mocking you or the beautiful words and sentiment you’ve shared. I wish I could only see the love and everything else you described as coming directly from His Book…but I cannot help but also see the mass murders and slaughterings of people who had different gods, lived in different lands that the Children of God said that He wanted to give them…can’t help but see the fallability of the Book’s science compared to what we do know of life’s origins, etc…I can’t square it all away…can’t buy the eternal punishment, whether His book says He wants any to perish or not…He knew damn well who was going to choose to follow Him and He knew where they would end up…tell me that’s not the cruelest fucking thing you can imagine…as a father of nine. And the part about a ‘relationship,’ that’s difficult to wrap my head around, even with having been a Christian. I’ve had relationships with family members, co-workers, esteemed friends, adversaries, strangers, etc, but I can’t remember feeling I had a relationship with Jesus/God…I always felt guilty…that’s the predominant feeling that I had for all the years of my belief…I could intellectualize His love, His forgiveness for ‘sins’ that I had commited and the rest of it, but there was never a ‘feeling’ of love or that He really gave a damn about me…I missed the feeling, and when I was praying as earnestly as I possibly could to be filled with His spirit so that I could feel His love and the happiness that I had heard comes from Him, I didn’t feel a thing…emptiness…a void…not a damn thing…and that was when I started to fall away…when I started thinking that it was all just a story that had continued from my childhood…just some stuff that parents tell their kids, like the boogeyman stories, that got stuck and keeps getting repeated from generation to generation. There are virgin-births, resurrections from the dead, floods, curses of pestilence, and ‘God-spoke’ creation stories across the globe and in multitudes of cultures who were never exposed to the Christian texts or missionaries…across and down through humanity…so why should this Jesus story be any different? Why should we understand that this one is true when we’ve discarded all of the other similar-sounding ones? And why should we believe this story instead of the story of the Muslims or Jews or Hindi or Buddhists…or the Mormons or the native religion from Ubangi or Nepal or the Navajo Nation…just because there’s a holy book that proclaims to be the inspired and inerrant Word of God? That doesn’t work. Why shouldn’t we follow the next guy who calls us on 9-1-1 to tell us that he’s the Son of God if he’s also got a neat book telling us that he really is God’s son and that the rest of the book’s contents are really his father’s words? I don’t mean to sound like I’m mocking you and your beliefs, or anybody’s…I’m not…and I’ve probably gone on long enough. What was the question?
Anyway…those are some of my thoughts…yours might be different.
Seekraz
September 19, 2009
Maestrojaune, David M, you provided an excellent reminder about the necessity of civility in our ‘discussion’ here. Some of my words might have had sharper teeth than they needed. I wasn’t trying to prove a point or convince anyone, just got on a bit of a rant. I would suggest that we blame Jason again, out of fun, but it was my rant…I’m sorry if I offended. I look forward to reading/hearing more from you…here and elsewhere.
Jason Martin
September 20, 2009
The funny thing about all of this as that so many of you assume that you know my position on the existence of God. I have actually yet to reveal any of that, to anyone. All I have done here is ask a question. I read an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that I own, had some questions, and put it out there for people to comment on. I have learned a great deal from this discussion. One of those things is that it has given me a glimpse into how wars start over such topics. One little question, sparked such debate and even hinged on offending some to the point of no return. Powerful stuff this is. Powerful.
I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this topic. Many who read the topic did not respond, I respect that. For those who did – I admire your willingness to put yourself and your beliefs out there for all to see, that takes real guts.
Machelle
September 20, 2009
Jason, I don’t think this will answer all of your questions, but have you read “The Shack”? It is an amazing, yet unusual book. Gives a different perspective, yet helps to understand the relashionship God wants to have with us. It’s worth the read. Just a thought.